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Charlie Loves U

Bowling Bash Nerf Unnecessary and Needs Revert

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I know we all have nightmares about how busted Knights were in Restart, but on every other server I've played they've been just fine. On this server, though the damage nerf is very noticeable. with a 200% damage reduction being the difference between a two shot and a three shot on a mob. I've heard the argument for nerfing bowling bash was "but we removed gutter lines". And I think I speak for all knight players in that I would rather have to use a program to see gutter lines and deal full dmg with my bowling bash then have no gutter lines and get a straight damage nerf.

 

the fact is this, despite what any non knight player will tell you, any good knight used simple ro hook and knew where the gutter lines were. as such, gutter lines never impacted knights before anyway because we simply avoided them. all it did was mean we had to move a few cells sometimes with our mob or fly wing when we got hit locked on a gutter line. (not a big deal).

 

Instead, we just get a nerf. nothing else. no compensation really because, again, we never were on gutter lines anyway. I propose that we just revert the bowling bash nerf and see how Knights do. If they become "OP" then we can look into them again, but right now I feel like they are pretty weak and the nerf was too pre-emptive. 

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Gutter lines were a fix to a problem that hasn't existed in RO for years and were an unnecessary hindrance to "new" Bowling Bash, so removing them is a quality of life improvement, rather than a buff to the skill.

Bowling Bash is balanced by a knight's limited sp pool and regeneration and the scarcity of sp items.  If you are going to nerf its damage, then reduce the sp consumption by a corresponding amount to compensate.  

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Did BB really get nerfed? lol

I thought it was only speculation, well from my PoV is ok, I've seen knights using them, but it's hella SP consuming, and since we don't have free sp items... the nerf is pointless...

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I do agree with the nerf being unnecassary, especially with us having no infinite SP regen items here it wouldn't have been the only solo carry leech way to level.

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The gutterline removal was introduced because we felt that no skill should require a third party program to play.

With the gutterline removal we had a good excuse to look at the skill again. It's way too strong as it is normally. I made this little chart as a comparison between melee attack aoe skills:

image.png.cb2e8bbf4da38b0cf79d7d988e61e005.png

As you can see unnerfed BB is by far the best AoE skill, Grimtooth is more sp efficient but is mechanically quite flawed with mobs running away and having to use hide.

BB might seem bad now because it's early on in the server, but once you get geared up and get that Earth Deleter Card and other sp solutions I'm sure it will feel great again.

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2 minutes ago, Saegys said:

The gutterline removal was introduced because we felt that no skill should require a third party program to play.

With the gutterline removal we had a good excuse to look at the skill again. It's way too strong as it is normally. I made this little chart as a comparison between melee attack aoe skills:

image.png.cb2e8bbf4da38b0cf79d7d988e61e005.png

As you can see unnerfed BB is by far the best AoE skill, Grimtooth is more sp efficient but is mechanically quite flawed with mobs running away and having to use hide.

BB might seem bad now because it's early on in the server, but once you get geared up and get that Earth Deleter Card and other sp solutions I'm sure it will feel great again.

 That's not considering all the other aspects of the kits of the classes either. Bowling Bash is pretty much what makes a knight, what it is. You can go agi knight, but then you can't mob and use bowling bash really anyway because you'll get melted. So if you are going a vit knight you rely on bowling bash to do what your class is designed to do. Those other classes that have AOE have other abilities/skills that make them what they are. Bowling Bash is what makes a Knight. 


It's like if you nerfed double attack for rogue or EDP for sin. You'd just gut the class.

 

Knights don't have any other form of good dps besides Bowling Bash. Brandish Spear is ok, but it was never comparable to BB. And it shouldn't be. Knights are a pain to gear up, require a lot of resources to farm with (even with earth deleter you are going to be spamming pots/fish to sustain your health). So as such, they shouldn't be nerfed.

 

It's not a matter of the ability itself being good. Of course its good. the entire kit is balanced around it being good. You can't look at abilities in a vacuum imo. Some abilities individually will always look broken. Ankle snare by itself is a hideously broken ability. trappers doing 25k-35k is insane. But they are balanced around that. 

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BB is what makes a Knight?

I vividly remember playing euRO 14 years ago and nearly every single Knight I saw was a spear build that used Brandish. The class was powerful back then too.

Somewhere along the line they changed up Bowling Bash into this ridiculously powerful skill.

Did you know that unnerfed BB deals more damage than skills like Sonic Blow, Holy Cross and Mammonite? Both of those are single target skills too, unlike Bowling Bash.

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Holy Cross for one is situationally way more dps than bowling bash on the right target (weak to holy obv) and does stupid damage single target. BB does NOT out dps that vs those mobs. generalist its the best dps ability in the game pre trans, but whats wrong with that? again, you are using a shit ton of resources to farm with a knight. something you DONT do on any other class.

 

why would I play knight, burn a shit ton of pots/sp items (assuming im a normal person without Earth Deleter) to have similar dps to other classes (cuz its nerfed right now) when I can just play other classes and not have to spend the pots/sp items.

 

Knights require a lot of investment in build as without shit like raydric you aren't gonna farm well on them. and even then you still need pots. I just don't understand the comparison to classes like sin/agi sader who have high flee. 

 

those classes have multitude of other strengths. Saders dominate the maps they should (demon/undead/shadow). And sins have really damn high flee. so do rogues. Hunters have ankle snare to not get hit.

 

Knights are going to take damage and sacrfice health. thats the point. they sacrifice that for more dps/aoe mobbing. 

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The fact that Holy Cross has an attached element is not always an advantage, endows or elemental weapons do nothing for that skill. Knights can just get Aspersio/Endows and do elemental BB which right now deals 100% less damage than Holy Cross BUT it's AoE.

Knights are good at mobbing because of Endure, their high hp pool and potion efficiency. That you go pure vit is your choice, a hybrid build is way better in the current meta and will make sure you flee some hits too.

Literally every class that mobs and wants to kill >3 enemies at once alone has to use potions or some other form of sustain. It's just that most classes don't even bother doing that right now. It's way cheaper to just go from 1 mob to another to kill them, which you can also do on a Knight if you build for it.

Right now Knights do use more sp/%dmg per BB, but that's intended. Look at the chart I posted earlier, they're still the best at what you're trying to do.

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20 minutes ago, Saegys said:

The fact that Holy Cross has an attached element is not always an advantage, endows or elemental weapons do nothing for that skill. Knights can just get Aspersio/Endows and do elemental BB which right now deals 100% less damage than Holy Cross BUT it's AoE.

Knights are good at mobbing because of Endure, their high hp pool and potion efficiency. That you go pure vit is your choice, a hybrid build is way better in the current meta and will make sure you flee some hits too.

Literally every class that mobs and wants to kill >3 enemies at once alone has to use potions or some other form of sustain. It's just that most classes don't even bother doing that right now. It's way cheaper to just go from 1 mob to another to kill them, which you can also do on a Knight if you build for it.

Right now Knights do use more sp/%dmg per BB, but that's intended. Look at the chart I posted earlier, they're still the best at what you're trying to do.

Aspersio at best lasts 3 minutes which no one is gonna mob very far with that. You either auto follow priest (then you cant mob a lot of monsters) or you park our priest (cant go very far from your priest before aspersio runs out). so I wouldn't even consider that. Elemental weapons are nice, but a lot of monsters are formless and don't have a weakness, and bowling bash is pretty weak to those right now. 

I don't go pure vit. I go hybrid vit/agi like you should. Any good knight is gonna have some agi to increase BB dps. And I don't know why you think getting some agi will help you getting hit less. that's not really how flee works. if your flee isn't very high it doesn't do much for you besides dodge a weaker mobs attacks and the occasional attack from a solo mob thats stronger.  vit builds get you hit far more often than agi builds (duh). 

yes you can build a knight for agi, but why the hell would anyone play an agi knight when they can play an agi sin, rogue, sader, or hunter who does more with the stat a million times better.

Knights are built to mob. thats the entire identity. the kit is built around mobbing. Like you said yourself, hp pool, potion efficiency, endure, and bowling bash/brandish spear. So of course they should have the best AOE mobbing ability. there is nothing wrong with that. You seem to think its bad that they are good at what they are supposed to be good at. they should be the best by a wide margin since that is their strength. 

I highly suggest trying to mob on a knight yourself. especially without an earth deleter and let me know how it feels. I've been playing knight WITH an earth deleter and it feels incredibly weak and underwhelming. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Charlie Loves U said:

Aspersio at best lasts 3 minutes which no one is gonna mob very far with that. You either auto follow priest (then you cant mob a lot of monsters) or you park our priest (cant go very far from your priest before aspersio runs out). so I wouldn't even consider that. Elemental weapons are nice, but a lot of monsters are formless and don't have a weakness, and bowling bash is pretty weak to those right now. 

I don't go pure vit. I go hybrid vit/agi like you should. Any good knight is gonna have some agi to increase BB dps. And I don't know why you think getting some agi will help you getting hit less. that's not really how flee works. if your flee isn't very high it doesn't do much for you besides dodge a weaker mobs attacks and the occasional attack from a solo mob thats stronger.  vit builds get you hit far more often than agi builds (duh). 

yes you can build a knight for agi, but why the hell would anyone play an agi knight when they can play an agi sin, rogue, sader, or hunter who does more with the stat a million times better.

Knights are built to mob. thats the entire identity. the kit is built around mobbing. Like you said yourself, hp pool, potion efficiency, endure, and bowling bash/brandish spear. So of course they should have the best AOE mobbing ability. there is nothing wrong with that. You seem to think its bad that they are good at what they are supposed to be good at. they should be the best by a wide margin since that is their strength. 

I highly suggest trying to mob on a knight yourself. especially without an earth deleter and let me know how it feels. I've been playing knight WITH an earth deleter and it feels incredibly weak and underwhelming. 

 

Literally every class that can't bring a priest with them is still going back for buffs, it's too inefficient to not do it. I use Aspersio when I'm hunting stuff like Raydrics without bringing my priest with me.

You flee while mobbing, that's why it's nice. Even if you get hit 20% less that's just less damage that you're taking.

Agi Knight isn't even bad, it's similar to spear sader except you have an AoE skill too instead of a pure single target.

I don't agree that's their entire identity, but you can mob well like you said. Is it not the best mobbing class in the game still? Don't they still deal with self mobbed monsters more efficiently than any other class?

I have a 9x BB/Pierce Knight. Mobbing alone feels like shit because I have no gear, that's why I party up instead.

 

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5 hours ago, Saegys said:

Literally every class that can't bring a priest with them is still going back for buffs, it's too inefficient to not do it. I use Aspersio when I'm hunting stuff like Raydrics without bringing my priest with me.

You flee while mobbing, that's why it's nice. Even if you get hit 20% less that's just less damage that you're taking.

Agi Knight isn't even bad, it's similar to spear sader except you have an AoE skill too instead of a pure single target.

I don't agree that's their entire identity, but you can mob well like you said. Is it not the best mobbing class in the game still? Don't they still deal with self mobbed monsters more efficiently than any other class?

I have a 9x BB/Pierce Knight. Mobbing alone feels like shit because I have no gear, that's why I party up instead.

 

 

Agi is pretty bad in the sense that its inferior to literally any one else who excels at building agi. sure its "viable" in the sense that its not completely terrible. but it is mostly terrible because you'd rather play something else with agi then a knight. 

 

Knights are built to mob and nothing else. As Lumen said on my stream they have no defensive tools. Only tools that help them mob. Endure, increase hp recovery, etc. No safety wall, hide, they won't have high flee as they need VIT to survive and they have huge HP pools.

 

you can talk all you want about their "sp efficiency" compared to other classes but you are leaving out that knights have trash sp pools and sp recovery even with int and magni on they won't be spamming bowling bash. (can attest to this myself as in beta I put int on my knight, ran magni and still was almost perma oom without ED) And the only way a knight is gonna be able to spam BB is with high end gear and earth deleter. at which point a knight player deserves to be able to do that. If a knight can get raydric, a high refine two handed sword that is actually good. (right now there are none besides zweihander which is an mvp drop), earth deleter, firelock shoes, etc. then why shouldn't they be able to mob like a beast. thats a fuck ton of expensive ass gears that are not in any way easy to come by. they basically don't do anything else but mob. and they should mob better than any other class by a mile since thats what they do. don't compare them to a rogue, sin because those classes aren't built for it and have many other strengths. its a joke to compare their AOE abilities to a knight when they have many other tools at their disposal that help them. 

 

even WITH earth deleter you will still be using more pots than any other class. and that's with your efficiency. you are just going to take a shit ton of damage. thats the cost for the reward. you mob fast, you level fast, you do more dps. But you take a shit ton more damage. and you can't spam and be super effiicient without full high end gear basically. or at least a high end weapon and a very difficult to obtain card. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Well i understand what you mean but to say that knight is the only one having a hard time with SP while mobbing and killing is a lie. Mobbing with an assassin with agi build no int and grimtooth uses alot of sp too, and does way less dmg. And as he Said you use hide and lose aggro and shit.

 

There is an inn for those reasons, heal and get sp, warp back farm some more. If you dont wanna go to an inn farm sp items. 

I get oom SP when playing all classes:P If one dont use ctrl+click to lvl. 

 

I have not tryed knight on titan, but on renewal it was way crazy:P Sure u had alot of easy sp items. But i dont have cash to buy from cash shop so i farmed sp items and lvled, and it was crazy!:) But fun also:P

Thats just my opinion.

-sylten

Edited by Sylten

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13 hours ago, Sylten said:

Well i understand what you mean but to say that knight is the only one having a hard time with SP while mobbing and killing is a lie. Mobbing with an assassin with agi build no int and grimtooth uses alot of sp too, and does way less dmg. And as he Said you use hide and lose aggro and shit.

 

There is an inn for those reasons, heal and get sp, warp back farm some more. If you dont wanna go to an inn farm sp items. 

I get oom SP when playing all classes:P If one dont use ctrl+click to lvl. 

 

I have not tryed knight on titan, but on renewal it was way crazy:P Sure u had alot of easy sp items. But i dont have cash to buy from cash shop so i farmed sp items and lvled, and it was crazy!:) But fun also:P

Thats just my opinion.

-sylten

assassin's aren't supposed to be as good at mobbing as knights as they do other things well. double attack, stealth, double crit on katar. they are not comparable to a knight which specifically only mobs. of course a knight is better at mobbing that an assassin. they damn well should be. 

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I don't know what you're trying to get at dude. This has nothing to do with class identity, it's a numbers tweak. We didn't remove Endure/Peco riding/Improve HP Recovery or anything.

You act like reducing the total BB damage by 20% removes Knights ability to mob and kill monsters. This is not the case.

According to your logic Wizards can't do anything in Renewal compared to Classic because their damage got nerfed.

Similarly, if we would nerf Double Attack from 50% to 40% chance (we're not),  would that make remove Rogues/Assassins ability to click stuff down? No.

 

I've talked to multiple people using BB who told me they didn't even know the skill was nerfed until someone told them, I think you're exaggerating.

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4 hours ago, Saegys said:

I don't know what you're trying to get at dude. This has nothing to do with class identity, it's a numbers tweak. We didn't remove Endure/Peco riding/Improve HP Recovery or anything.

You act like reducing the total BB damage by 20% removes Knights ability to mob and kill monsters. This is not the case.

According to your logic Wizards can't do anything in Renewal compared to Classic because their damage got nerfed.

Similarly, if we would nerf Double Attack from 50% to 40% chance (we're not),  would that make remove Rogues/Assassins ability to click stuff down? No.

 

I've talked to multiple people using BB who told me they didn't even know the skill was nerfed until someone told them, I think you're exaggerating.

 

what im getting at it, is that as the title says its unnecessary. the argument you've made against knights is that they mob and have better aoe/sp efficiency than any other class. then you brought up a chart comparing them to assassins/rogues who are not a class built for it. thats my point. it's not that knights completely lost their identity with the nerf, its that you are nerfing them on a basis that has poor logic. The whole idea of "well this is WAY better than other classes AOE so it needs to be nerfed" is silly because it should be way better than other classes. 

 

I've also talked to people playing knight in my guild and they notice the nerf too. I, myself, can feel the nerf. (hence the post) I've seen  it come up in main chat too. Just the other day someone posted in main chat "is bowling bash nerfed?" because they felt weaker. I'm not alone in this sentiment.  

 

 

 

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As a player, who has been maining knights for quite a while now, I have to agree with Charlie here. I would rather use hook instead of a "quality of life" "improvement" on my skills that basically reduces my damage by 20%.

Playing around gutter lines is part of the knights life.  I don't have the BiS equipments at the moment, but I do have decent enough gears, and still I feel the difference. Mobbing is quite horrible for knights. An SP consuming skill that requires gear and still can't quite get in enough damage? A perfect way to behead this class.

I am also on the opinion that this "fix" is unnecessary, and there is no valid reasoning behind it. Stuff like this usually comes down to some ulterior motive, and could tarnish reputations. Leaving the skill as it should be is, in my opinion, the smarter choice.

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Posted (edited)

Nerf is absolutely necessary. BB is still the highest DPS source and it's an AoE, stop complaining. We don't want a knight-only WoE where other classes are bullied by peco-fast F1-spammers that deal sustained highest physical melee AoE DPS with no drawbacks. 

 Knight leveling is fine for both vit and agi, on par or above other classes. Arguments against the nerf are BS.

1 hour ago, Halrien said:

Stuff like this usually comes down to some ulterior motive, and could tarnish reputations.

Am I the only one to find weird that the guild asking for a buff to BB damages is also the guild with twice the number of high level knights than other guilds?  Is it an "ulterior motive?"

http://cp.titanro.net/?module=ranking&action=character&jobclass=7

Edited by SabatonCBA
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So, at least you are honest about nerfing, and not hiding it behind "quality of life improvement". 

I was disappointed in this nerf before I joined any guild, so there goes that. 

But going with the hurr-durr I can do it better than Gravity mentality is way more damaging. But hey, I could be complaining about a specific snake oriented card, which should proc 5% only, or with a certain passive skill already learned, shouldn't even take effect, but I am not here to take away the joy of a class, leaving a sour taste in every assassins mouth. 

All in all, if the GMs want to nerf, firstly look at more pressing matters, and avoid nerfing unnecessary things. Gutter lines were never a problem, until now.

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Gutter lines were a bug in the code and a problem for the gameplay, it has been fixed and it's a QoL improvement. Now BB still does ton of damages and needs a nerf. Nobody here is trying to "hide some truth" in a great conspiracy against Knights. 

2 hours ago, Halrien said:

I was disappointed in this nerf before I joined any guild, so there goes that. 

Yeah so let's buff one guild over others three weeks before WoE starts! 

2 hours ago, Halrien said:

But going with the hurr-durr I can do it better than Gravity mentality is way more damaging. 

Gravity has shat on its playerbase feedback for 15 years, how do you this is an argument?

2 hours ago, Halrien said:

. Gutter lines were never a problem, until now.

How desperate are you to have a 20% damage buff on your poorly built knight?

 

This thread should be closed already

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Posted (edited)

Aww, poorly buit? Yeah, sure. You came into this thread only to get personal, and to derail the actual discussion about the problem. which shows that deep down, your only hope to be somewhat competent with your chosen class is to nerf other ones. Thats just...pitiful. Thankfully, you are not a GM, so from now on, your bile will be properly ignored on my part.

 

So, back on topic: 20% is still 20%. A solution: if the damage is decreased, the SP consumption should be decreased also. This could be a managable compromise.

A blatant nerf will only build drama, a compromise could solve the problem.

Edited by Halrien

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11 minutes ago, Halrien said:

Aww, poorly buit? Yeah, sure. You came into this thread only to get personal, and to derail the actual discussion about the problem. which shows that deep down, your only hope to be somewhat competent with your chosen class is to nerf other ones. Thats just...pitiful. Thankfully, you are not a GM, so from now on, your bile will be properly ignored on my part.

 

So, back on topic: 20% is still 20%. A solution: if the damage is decreased, the SP consumption should be decreased also. This could be a managable compromise.

A blatant nerf will only build drama, a compromise could solve the problem.

Right, I should not have attacked your poorly built knight.

Still not a single argument for reverting a small nerf on the most OP skill of the game in its current state but nonsense about Gravity, gutter lines not being a problem, and whataboutism.
There is no compromise to reach but balancing the game. Keep the nerf

 

 

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1 hour ago, SabatonCBA said:

Right, I should not have attacked your poorly built knight.

Still not a single argument for reverting a small nerf on the most OP skill of the game in its current state but nonsense about Gravity, gutter lines not being a problem, and whataboutism.
There is no compromise to reach but balancing the game. Keep the nerf

 

 

lots of arguments being made, you guys just ignoring them. argument is that knights bring nothing but mobbing/dps with literally zero utility. no defensive tools, just tools that enable them to mob and dps. endure is the best utility they have and it doesn't prevent any dmg, just prevents hit lock. 

 

Bowling Bash is OP if you look at it exclusively for what it is alone and not at the class it was put on. Put BB on any other class and yes it would be the most broken shit, but knights have been balanced around the ability for ages and have been fine for ages. They were only broken on restart because there were no concerns about spending on pots (neither sp nor HP)

 

you really haven't made an argument other than it has high dps/strong aoe, etc. which we already know dude. literally no one here is saying the ability isn't good. Just that the nerf was unnecessary and pre-emptive against a class that doesn't offer anything else. They didn't need any nerfs because quite frankly you can't spam the ability. You and everyone else against Bowling Bash seem to think we are playing on restart. Well we aren't. WOE boxes don't exist. and neither do strawberry raffles. 

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