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Charlie Loves U

Battlegrounds Rewards need looking at

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There are some rewards I've just found out in battlegrounds that are simply too good and should either not be there at all, or have significantly more cost associated with them in battlegrounds.

 

 

Glistening Coats, should definitely have a much higher coast associated with them then 8 badges which is apparently 1-2 runs of battlegrounds win or lose. This means any guild can EASILY stock up and invalidate strippers/stripping weapons right off the bat with no cost associated with it.

 

I also suggest that bottle grenades/acid bottles be removed when the transcendant update comes. One of the balancing levers of Bio Chems is that their is supposed to be a high cost associated with the ability. In exchange for high dps, burst dmg, range...(oh wait this ability is broken)  you use annoying to farm mats to cast the ability. By having these in battle grounds not only will Bio Chems be meta(they already will be without this) they will dominate. There will be no cost associated with the ability and they can have their easy to get woe supplies and save the hard to get stuff for MVPing. 

 

Either way, part of the game balancing is that the abilities have cost associated with them. And yes, we do need good rewards for battlegrounds, but the mats for these abilities should not be a part of them. I personally think the woe pots are enough. that alone is enough incentive to play the mode. 

 

 

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I fully agree with Charlie! Problem is people are already stocked up with them, so removing the bottles (when trans hits) wont really fix anything. And removing them now, you get people complaining about their badges beign wasted...

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2 hours ago, Lapaco said:

I fully agree with Charlie! Problem is people are already stocked up with them, so removing the bottles (when trans hits) wont really fix anything. And removing them now, you get people complaining about their badges beign wasted...

easy solution is to make the items (which should already be woe bound) un-useable and create an npc to convert them into badges again. or just compensate people who had them with badges again. 

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I strongly disagree with this.  Regarding glistening coats, if you think that there will be a chem giving all four coats to every player in a guild, then you are sadly mistaken.  Secondly, you have to actually be in the castle to use the skill.  You can't pre buff them in town or outside of the castle, which is almost reason alone to allow their existence since you can't just have your slave account coating everyone in town, and if you dual client your slaves in a castle, then more power to you considering you had to bg on a slave.  I disagree with "any guild can EASILY stock up and invalidate strippers/stripping weapons right off the bat with no cost associated with it" because there is a time/badge investment cost associated with getting them in the first place, as well as actually playing the class, which is the most material intensive class, period.  

Regarding acid bottles, I once again don't understand "no cost associated with the ability" when clearly there is a time/badge investment to get the bottles to play in BG/WOE.  BG having cheap materials is a great thing, and makes the mode completely enjoyable for all classes instead of restricting play to only those who can afford it.  Even if biochems "become meta and dominate BG", is that an inherently bad thing?  They rely on HEAVY support, not to mention there are plenty of skills that counter acid bomb, I shouldn't even need to explain this.  I think you are looking too far into the future over a problem that doesn't exist yet (and won't in my opinion), and this suggested change is far too dramatic.  Alchemist and Biochemist will be in practical terms unplayable in BG with this change.  It's unfair to give every other class the mats they need to enjoy BG and leave out one.  As far as their existence in WOE boxes, I think they are balanced fairly, and will take hundreds of badges for a biochemist to be fully prepared for WOE at their highest potential.  

 

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There's quite a lot of thought been given to the balance for these items already, but I hear the feedback. One thing to keep in mind is that the most competitive guilds will not allow their Creators to run out of glistening coats, bomb, or acid bottles in WoE, they'll farm enough before WoE to have more than enough supply for each Creator at WoE. As well, the Battlegrounds rewards are account-bound, so someone playing on that account had to individually spend time to earn enough materials for each War of Emperium; where with traditional bottles, a guild could organize a farming party with a group of players to supply a few WoEs worth of bottles for the guild.

What if this time spent farming bottle materials was instead spent in Battlegrounds actively playing the creator character that they plan to bring to WoE?

I suppose the goal for balance is that the Battlegrounds materials (WoE-only) take less time to earn than it would take to hunt + brew the items traditionally. This is because the items gathered from monsters (bomb + acid bottles) could be used for MVPing, where the WoE-only items are limited to one account, and limited to WoE.

If we need to change something like this and are concerned about people having already stocked up, we can give an adjustment or refund for items already purchased.

I think that removing WoE bottles completely is a very reasonable option, but it will take away one reason to do Battlegrounds, and it won't make the most competitive guilds any less equipped, it will instead increase the distance between the most prepared and the less-prepared guilds who don't regularly end up with a castle.

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1 hour ago, teh_Pope said:

I strongly disagree with this.  Regarding glistening coats, if you think that there will be a chem giving all four coats to every player in a guild, then you are sadly mistaken.  Secondly, you have to actually be in the castle to use the skill.  You can't pre buff them in town or outside of the castle, which is almost reason alone to allow their existence since you can't just have your slave account coating everyone in town, and if you dual client your slaves in a castle, then more power to you considering you had to bg on a slave.  I disagree with "any guild can EASILY stock up and invalidate strippers/stripping weapons right off the bat with no cost associated with it" because there is a time/badge investment cost associated with getting them in the first place, as well as actually playing the class, which is the most material intensive class, period.  

Regarding acid bottles, I once again don't understand "no cost associated with the ability" when clearly there is a time/badge investment to get the bottles to play in BG/WOE.  BG having cheap materials is a great thing, and makes the mode completely enjoyable for all classes instead of restricting play to only those who can afford it.  Even if biochems "become meta and dominate BG", is that an inherently bad thing?  They rely on HEAVY support, not to mention there are plenty of skills that counter acid bomb, I shouldn't even need to explain this.  I think you are looking too far into the future over a problem that doesn't exist yet (and won't in my opinion), and this suggested change is far too dramatic.  Alchemist and Biochemist will be in practical terms unplayable in BG with this change.  It's unfair to give every other class the mats they need to enjoy BG and leave out one.  As far as their existence in WOE boxes, I think they are balanced fairly, and will take hundreds of badges for a biochemist to be fully prepared for WOE at their highest potential.  

 

the difference is the time it takes to farm the mats for acid bomb are significantly lower than they would be if you farmed them. this isn't an equal trade off at all. its very very easy to farm tokens. in 1 or 2 days of playing battle grounds one of my guildies has over 300 badges I believe. if not more. and that's just a couple days

 

alcohol, a key ingredient in both is a 0.5 (ZERO point five) drop chance at most. the highest being toad which is a mini boss spawn that isn't even always up. there is no way this is going to be balanced. You can say I'm speaking from a problem that wont materialize but I've already seen the problem materialize in front of me on restart. On restart Bio chems had easy to get mats for acid bomb simply by buying from a raffle in mass which also "took time" to do and they still had to take the "time" to pot using their mats. And let me tell you, it was bio chem city literally everywhere. 

 

What's wrong with that? It might be ok if they weren't so absurdly dominant as they were on restart, but if we aren't hard nerfing their damage, or giving them some other form of restriction(cooldown, higher fixed cast time, etc.), with easy to get mats they will be the only option for dps and they will be dominant in mvp-ing because any mats you farm with alcohol as a guild, are going to go to MVPing since the mats for WOE are so easy to get. 

 

the problem may not inherently be that they are there (I personally feel that they are) but their cost is so low for how hard they are to farm usually that its just not a good idea. And there are ways to counter literally everything in any meta of any game. Nothing is 1 button insta win in any game, but that does not mean it is in any way balanced. that's not an argument for it being ok. Think about shit in other games like Kassadin in season 3 league of legends, or michael vick in old madden 04 where he was unstoppable. Sure you could counterplay it and learn strats against both, but they were in no healthy for their games or good. And that's how I feel about bio chems. There are ways to beat them, but the game revolves too much around one class when they are as strong as they were on restart. 

 

 

And Trojal, I want to ask what is wrong with the parity being so drastic between a guild who works harder than another. The thing is, if a guild is dominating because they work hard and put int the time to prepare and farm mats they should straight up deserve that. Let's Sidequest goes out as a guild and farms the mat for all their Bio chems for an entire day or two. Another guild doesnt and gets dumpstered in WOE because they can't compete. Well that's totally ok because one guild put in the work. 

 

And as for one less thing being a reason to play, no doubt that will be a drawback of removal, but from my experience talking to people, the WOE pots alone are enough to justify playing the mode. They are insanely cost efficient, the mode is fun, and its a great way to stock up on pots. And literally every class can use pots (both blue and white) for WOE. They are essential.

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(Since you mentioned SQ:) I'm glad my alchemists can focus on brewing slim whites for the entire guild while getting their bottles through BG, considering how much of a pain brewing is in general.

They still have to put in the effort in BG, and if you're an alchemist not using any mats in BG, you're not gonna have a great time with that either.

And regarding creators, it'll be months before those could even become a potential problem; and considering the equip we have available, as well as potential changes, they won't be as op as on Restart in the first place.

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"Time and investment in BG"
"Effort in BG" 

You can lose and still get a ton. Hell, you can even join late and still get badges. There is little to no effort and invalidates any of you calling them a time investment class.

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I'm sorry to say Charlie, but it seems you have some kind of PTSD from a heavily botted, OP cash shop, pay2win server that heavily distorts the reality of gear level that will be remotely possible in this server.  Our content progression and lack of cash shop doesn't allow the same access to +10 level 4 weapons and other ridiculous skill changes that made biochem so ridiculous on restart.  Plus, alcohol can be crafted by alchemists, so it's not a 0.5% only drop and if you are farming alcohol that way, you are doing it wrong.  Also, we plan to adjust acid bomb, it's just not pertinent to do so now because it doesn't even exist.  

Lumen, I also feel like this is complaining that "X character counters the class I play, please nerf it."  That logic is always bogus and I think the actual reality of WOE will not have guilds fully coated and making rogue useless as claimed.  

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That's because other servers didn't have coats easily available like they are here. Also, I for one will make an Alchemist on the same account as my main, which has over 300+ badges just because of how easy they are to get, and have rarely ever played Alchemist. Rogues are only useful for Divesting, anything else they are outmatched by other classes, so yes, when coats are a cake walk to get, they can in fact be countered. I have absolutely no desire to play a Rogue anymore, especially when it's a server this small and literally every WoE guild would have an Alchemist ready at hand if they need it. That is a fact. It also just makes sword/mail breakers and other skills/cards that break equipment entirely useless as these coats are a breeze to get now. 

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4 hours ago, Lumen said:

 I have absolutely no desire to play a Rogue anymore, especially when it's a server this small and literally every WoE guild would have an Alchemist ready at hand if they need it. That is a fact. It also just makes sword/mail breakers and other skills/cards that break equipment entirely useless as these coats are a breeze to get now. 

This is a massive assumption against a server that hasn't even had its first woe lol.  I will once again guarantee that no guild by any means will have all its members permanently coated for an entire duration of woe.  Mailbreaker and Swordbreaker are always strong in every meta, I find that statement completely absurd.  

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Honestly I don't see the problem. Having these mats available in bgs helps out the smaller guilds. The bigger competitive guild will make sure to have these mats already. This just makes it a more even playing field. Your argument about making stippers unless is not good enough.

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It's an assumption based on the fact that they're a cake walk to get. Apparently you do not understand that.

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5 minutes ago, Lumen said:

 they're a cake walk to get

[citation needed]

 

People struggle to launch two or three BG game in a day to get their WoE pots and somehow alchemists who need 4 Coats per person every 10 min or every death have stockpiled more than needed... Do we play on the same server? 

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I have over 300 badges. And you guys keep bringing up that you need to use all 4 coats, which you do not, all you'd need is the weapon and armor one, they are the most important ones. And once WoE is over, you'd bet your ass people will join BG's to refill their supply. I'm not saying we should get rid of them, but the cost is so cheap for how many you get.

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This is getting a bit argumentative; let's see how WoE goes and discuss this again after WoE (either here, or in roundtable in discord)

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There's some WoE statistics about item consumption in here: 

 to me it doesn't look like anyone went too overboard with glistening coats, but there were a lot of WoE whites and blues consumed.

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Thanks for the helpful feedback about BG reward items, specifically alchemist bottles. After seeing the usage counts in 2 WoEs, we think that the item usage is at an acceptable level and will be keeping the rewards for now. Please feel free to open a new topic in the future as things change (such as may happen with transcendant classes).

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